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JackT808
(User)
Hello everyone, I've come with a recent acquisition of mine looking for information for research. I have identified it as a "Madonna Saber" via Wagner's Cut and Thrust weapons pg 407. I've also found information regarding the sword in "Ungarischer Sabel und Husaren-Pallasch". Does anyone have more information regarding this beautiful saber?

Stats:
Weight in scabbard: 3 lb 10.5 oz/1660g
Blade weight: 1 lb 12 oz/794g
Overall length 38 3/4" in the scabbard
Overall blade length 37 3/4"
Blade length 33"
Point of balance 8" from hilt

Have found some information here in this thread over at vikingsword: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22564

One user there provided this information about the Pottenstein manufacturer: https://www.biographien.ac.at/oebl/oebl_S/Steiner_Melchior_1762_1837.xml

This information cannot be wholly correct as there is a Pottenstein signature marked 1749 on the first page and this information says Melchior set up his import business in the 1760's.

From what I've read this sword is from somewhere between 1760-1811. What I find unusual are the silver fittings instead of the usual brass. One user on vikingsword said that the trim of the sword was reserved for a specific Hussar unit but could not remember the source or unit.

Highly interesting and beautiful sword for research, I appreciate the read and any help I receive!

Cheers
23.10.21, 17:53:41

excalibur
(Moderator)
hallo JackT808,

es ist zweifellos ein sehr schöner säbel. leider gibt es von diesen, hervorragend
nachgemachte exemplare. ich möchte jetzt nicht zu 100% sagen, dass es sich um
eine neue kopie handelt, aber es sieht schon sehr stark danach aus. auch ist
es sehr suspekt, wenn bei Mater Dei, das jesus kindlein abhanden gekommen ist.

auch bei: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22564 ,
sehen einige teile fragwürdig aus.

""TRANSLATION"":
hello JackT808. it is undoubtedly a very beautiful saber. unfortunately, there are
excellently imitated copies of these. I do not want to say that it is 100% a copy,
but it looks very much like it. Also, it is very suspicious, that the Mater Dei's Jesus
child has gone missing.

also look at: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22564 ,
some parts look questionable.


23.10.21, 20:07:04

JackT808
(User)
Thanks for the response! I posted in that thread already note on page 2. I very much doubt this is one of those copies, leather is difficult to age properly and the pictures make it look better than it is. I can take a better picture of the handle but it is in poor shape. The aging on the steel also appears genuine.

Not all Madonna's have the baby jesus, Mary was worshipped heavily in Hungary and there is a wide variation of depictions.

Attached is picture from "Ungarischer Sabel und Husaren-Pallasch"

23.10.21, 20:32:24

schanzer
(Mitglied)
Ein schöner Säbel,danke fürs Vorstellen.

Gruß
schanzer

24.10.21, 08:45:06

JackT808
(User)
It is an extraordinary example of a madonna saber for sure which certainly is why the reaction of it possibly being a copy. It seems many of the copies were made for a ceremony in the early 20th century, but I haven't found any that are marked made by Pottenstein. Pottenstein sabers are quite rare, it is very well made. Lighter than my British 1796 LC Officer made by Dawes, but sturdier feeling in construction as well.

I plan on posting a comparison between the madonna, my 1796, an 1811 Blucher I own, and a cold steel replica just for reference for the replica crowd.

Just trying to find more information prior to doing my write-up as information is quite scarce.

I've posted the entirety of my collection here on SBG: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/64998/jacks-weapon-depot-updated-21oct21

Cheers

24.10.21, 18:08:08

Zietenhusar
(Hausmeister)
Zitat von JackT808:
I've posted the entirety of my collection here on SBG
Nice scottish Display. freuen

Welcome on Board.

As for the saber, I have to say that at first glance I thought it was a copy. The many details on the blade are too well preserved compared to other sabers from this period. But I stay away from the assessment.

Regards,
Thomas

24.10.21, 19:33:31

JackT808
(User)
I've posted some closeups so the aging on the sword is more apparent. I carefully cleaned the sword prior to posting pictures of it. It was listed at auction as having been possible partially restored with the leather, but I do not see where. The leather aging is in line with its age similar to other pieces of have in as fine as a condition.

Are you aware of any copies being signed as "Pottenstein"? I have not found any, most are signed either Fringia or Solingen.

The Sgian and Dirk both have hand-carved handles done by me, the baskethilt has an AN XIII blade and was done by Jesse Belsky.I currently also have a Vince Evans dirk being made at the moment. Wish I could own one of his baskethilts but the wait list is infinite.

24.10.21, 20:00:10

excalibur
(Moderator)
hallo.

meine reaktion ist nicht eine solche, weil es ein außergewöhnliches stück ist,
sondern weil, leider, einige indizien für eine replik sprechen. die schriftart, das
leder, das griffblech ist an der parierstange angelötet, die ätzung. auch wenn im
buch von F.Jäger eine ähnliche ätzung abgebildet ist, besagt das nicht wirklich
etwas, denn diese abbildung ist nur als zeichnung vorhanden. unmöglich zu sagen,
ob diese einem original entnommen ist. es ist nicht böse gemeint, und ich möchte
natürlich nichts schlechtmachen, aber ich bekomme herzschmerzen, wenn ich die
nahaufnahmen sehe.

P.S.: dein "British 1796 Heavy Cavalry Officer's Undress sword" ist spitze.


TRANSLATION: hello. my reaction is not one because it is an exceptional piece, but because, unfortunately, some indications speak for a replica. the typeface, the leather, the grip plate is soldered to the parry bar, the etching. even if in the book of F. Jäger's book, it doesn't really mean anything, because this illustration is only available as a drawing. impossible to say if this is taken from an original. no offense is meant, and of course i don't want to badmouth anything, but i get a heartache when i see the close-ups. P.S.: your "British 1796 Heavy Cavalry Officer's Undress sword" is great.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

24.10.21, 21:49:58

JackT808
(User)
No need to use a translator, amazing new age of ours, and my browser automatically translates for me.

Here is the sword as it was presented at auction and its twin in brass that is very similar, with the same type of madonna.

And also a silver fitted "Life Guards" Hussar sword that is similar in make. Both from the same auction.

Another Madonna saber with the same type of madonna on vikingsword: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23528
24.10.21, 22:14:54

JackT808
(User)
Here is a Hungarian 1845 saber that has exactly the same font, no picture of the Madonna. From what I've been seeing no two font type has been the same for these sabers. Every single madonna picture is slightly different as well.

The vikingsword Pottenstein sword is likely 50 years older than mine, so very different construction and style.

Why do you think soldering indicates replica? I've never considered that an indication of a new style, it is not a new method.

Finding few examples in strange places, here's one that's been 3d modeled from an original with a Mary without baby and a different font again. https://www.artstation.com/artwork/Qzqk2Z

24.10.21, 23:00:31
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